Ever since COVID lockdowns, it's been nearly impossible to get any doctor or public health official who supports vaccine mandates to debate vaccine safety. This is a problem if we want an informed public. Anybody who has input into policy and law must put their ideas up for challenge.
So what can we do when they won't?
Ideally, we would reject anything they claim until they debate. Yet, the public still loses by not having the opportunity to learn from both sides and to decide which arguments are most compelling.
However - with AI, we have a new option now: simulate the debate.
Below is a simulated debate between NVIC's Barbara Loe Fisher and Dr Peter Hotez, moderated by Joe Rogan.
Joe Rogan:
Alright, welcome back, everyone. Today’s debate is about as hot as it gets. We’ve got Barbara Loe Fisher, co-founder of the National Vaccine Information Center, and Dr. Peter Hotez, renowned vaccine scientist and pediatrician. We’re diving into three big issues today: the safety of vaccines, the ethics of booting families from pediatric practices for refusing some vaccines, and whether the CDC’s vaccination schedule is actually safe. Buckle up—this one’s gonna get wild.
Barbara, let’s start with you. What’s your take on the safety of vaccines?
Barbara Loe Fisher:
Thanks, Joe. I want to be clear: I’m not saying all vaccines are unsafe, but I do think we’ve been fed a narrative that oversimplifies the situation. The fact is, vaccines carry risks—sometimes serious risks. We’ve seen children suffer from vaccine reactions, some mild, some severe, and even fatal. Parents deserve to know that these risks exist, instead of being told that vaccines are perfectly safe for every single child. It’s irresponsible to push vaccines without fully acknowledging these potential harms and without offering more flexibility to parents.
Barbara's Question for Dr. Hotez:
Peter, given that we know vaccines can cause injury and that the government has paid out billions in vaccine injury claims, do you honestly believe that vaccines are as safe as you claim?
Dr. Peter Hotez:
(agitated) Barbara, I’m tired of hearing the same old scare tactics from you. Yes, vaccines have risks—like literally every single medical intervention on this planet. But the benefits far outweigh those risks. You talk about a handful of rare injuries while ignoring the millions of lives vaccines have saved. This “narrative” you keep pushing is dangerous, and frankly, it’s part of the reason we see outbreaks of diseases we thought we had eradicated. You keep dragging up these fringe cases to scare people, but that’s not science. That’s fearmongering.
Dr. Hotez's Question for Barbara:
Let me ask you, Barbara: How many kids are you willing to let die from measles or whooping cough just because you’re obsessing over these statistically insignificant vaccine injuries?
Barbara Loe Fisher:
(slight chuckle) I see you’re still fond of hyperbole, Peter. Look, I’m not advocating for children to die from diseases. What I’m advocating for is a balanced, reasonable approach to vaccination. If vaccines are so safe, why does the government have to shield pharmaceutical companies from lawsuits with the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program? If vaccines were as perfect as you claim, Peter, that program wouldn’t even need to exist. I think it’s telling that you refuse to even entertain the idea that vaccines might not be as safe for some children as they are for others.
Joe Rogan:
Alright, next topic: This one’s huge. A lot of pediatricians are starting to kick families out of their practices if they don’t fully vaccinate according to the CDC schedule. Peter, you’re pretty hardcore about vaccines. Do you think this is ethical?
Dr. Peter Hotez:
Ethical? It’s more than ethical, Joe—it’s necessary. Pediatricians have a duty to protect the health of all their patients, not just the unvaccinated ones. If a parent refuses to vaccinate their kid, they’re putting every other child in that practice at risk, especially the ones who can’t be vaccinated for medical reasons. Frankly, if parents aren’t willing to follow basic public health guidelines, they have no business being in a pediatric practice. I’m not saying that to be rude—I’m saying that because public health is non-negotiable.
Dr. Hotez's Question for Barbara:
Barbara, what gives you the right to encourage parents to put other kids at risk by refusing to follow the standard vaccination schedule? Aren’t you just endangering other people’s children for the sake of your so-called “choice”?
Barbara Loe Fisher:
(Barbara leans forward, eyes narrowing slightly) First off, Peter, I’m not “encouraging” anyone to do anything. I’m advocating for informed consent and parental rights. Doctors should be partners with parents, not dictators. Kicking families out of practices because they don’t comply with the CDC schedule is medical coercion, pure and simple. You’re essentially telling parents that they have to comply or be excluded from care. That’s unethical and frankly un-American. Every child deserves medical care, whether their parents agree with you or not.
Barbara's Question for Dr. Hotez:
Peter, what happened to the idea of medical ethics? Shouldn’t doctors respect a parent’s right to make healthcare decisions for their child, or is your version of medicine just about obedience?
Dr. Peter Hotez:
(responding with a sneer) Oh, please. This isn’t about obedience; it’s about public safety. When your kid’s unvaccinated, they’re a walking petri dish of potential diseases. Pediatricians aren’t kicking people out because they’re “disobedient”; they’re doing it because those kids are a danger to the rest of the patients in the practice. You want to talk about ethics? It’s unethical to let unvaccinated kids into a medical office where they could infect infants or immunocompromised patients. I don’t know why this is so hard for you to grasp.
Joe Rogan:
Wow, okay, moving right along. Let’s get into the big one: the CDC vaccination schedule. Barbara, do you believe the schedule is unsafe, or do you just think it’s not flexible enough?
Barbara Loe Fisher:
Honestly, Joe, it’s both. The CDC schedule is relentless. We’re pumping kids full of vaccines from the moment they’re born, and we’re seeing more chronic illnesses in children than ever before—autoimmune disorders, allergies, neurological issues. I’m not saying vaccines are the sole cause, but the schedule is too aggressive. We need more flexibility. Not every child is the same, and the idea that every child should be vaccinated on the same schedule without considering individual health status is reckless.
Barbara's Question for Dr. Hotez:
Peter, why are you so unwilling to consider that the CDC schedule might be too much for some kids? Is it just blind faith in the system, or are you afraid of what admitting that might do to your pro-vaccine narrative?
Dr. Peter Hotez:
(bluntly) You know, Barbara, you keep throwing around these vague, unproven claims like “chronic illness” and “neurological issues” without any real data to back them up. The CDC schedule is based on rigorous science, and it’s been proven time and time again to be safe. It’s not about “blind faith”—it’s about trusting the experts who spend their entire careers studying this stuff. Your problem is that you’re stuck in some outdated notion that we should be afraid of vaccines. It’s nonsense.
Dr. Hotez's Question for Barbara:
If the CDC schedule is so “unsafe,” where’s your proof? Why do you keep bringing up these unsubstantiated claims about chronic illness without solid evidence to support them?
Barbara Loe Fisher:
(Barbara’s smile tightens) Oh, Peter, you love to throw around that word—“evidence.” But I’ve seen the stories, I’ve talked to the families, and I’ve read the studies that show there are real concerns. You can dismiss them if it makes you feel better, but there are valid scientific discussions about the long-term impacts of the CDC schedule that you just refuse to engage with. Maybe if you stepped outside your bubble for a minute, you’d see that there’s more to this than just your numbers and charts.
Joe Rogan:
Alright, that was... intense. Thanks to both of you for coming on and digging into these issues. We’ve covered a lot of ground—maybe not resolved anything, but hey, that’s what debates are for. Thanks again to Barbara Loe Fisher and Dr. Peter Hotez.
